Mark Malatesta Interview and Review with Nelson Johnson
During this interview and Mark Malatesta review, author Nelson Johnson talks about his writing, advice for writers, and experience working with former literary agent Mark Malatesta, who helped him get multiple offers from agents. Nelson is the New York Times bestselling author of Boardwalk Empire, which was adapted for the HBO series produced by Martin Scorsese, and other books, including Darrow’s Nightmare. The review of Mark Malatesta below is an edited excerpt. Click here to see the complete review, and here to see more Mark Malatesta reviews.
Mark Malatesta Review by Bestselling Author Nelson Johnson
“Mark, you’re a thoughtful gentleman and a constructive critic. Before we met, I wanted to find an agent who’d understand the value of my work, bring it to life in the mind of readers, and bring it to life on the screen. When I looked online for a coach, your name rose to the top. After we spoke, I knew we’d work well together. I could tell by the questions you asked and your ability to listen. You understood where I was coming from, and you were extremely helpful. I value our friendship.”
Nelson Johnson
New York Times bestselling author of Boardwalk Empire, adapted for the HBO series produced by Martin Scorsese, and other books including Darrow’s Nightmare
Nelson Johnson Interview
During this 59-minute interview with Mark Malatesta, Nelson Johnson talks about his books, including Boardwalk Empire and Darrow’s Nightmare. Nelson also shares tips for other authors, and he talks about his experience working with Mark Malatesta, a former literary agent turned author coach and consultant, who helped Nelson get multiple offers from literary agents.
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Part 1 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: Hi everyone, this is Mark Malatesta, a former literary agent turned author coach and consultant. I’ve helped hundreds of authors get offers from literary agents and/or traditional publishers through my company Literary Agent Undercover, a division of The Bestselling Author.
My authors have gotten 6-figure book deals with major publishers like Random House; been on the New York Times bestseller list; and had their work picked up for TV, stage, and feature film (with companies like Paramount Pictures, DreamWorks, Lionsgate, and HBO), like today’s special guest.
Nelson Johnson is the New York Times bestselling author of Boardwalk Empire, the book that spawned the HBO series produced by Martin Scorsese. Nelson’s latest book, Darrow’s Nightmare, brings to life the worst two years in the life of the legendary lawyer.
Terence Winter, creator and executive producer of Boardwalk Empire, says, “Darrow’s Nightmare is a fascinating portrait of Clarence Darrow as we’ve never seen him before, as a criminal defendant. Nelson Johnson tells the riveting tale of America’s most famous lawyer as he fights for his life, marriage, career and reputation. I couldn’t put it down.”
During the past 15 years, Nelson has made hundreds of presentations related to his books. He’s a former judge who was appointed to the New Jersey Superior Court after presiding over hundreds of jury trials in the Civil Division, being elected twice to the Hammonton school board, and serving two terms as a member of the Atlantic County Board of Commissioners.
In the early 80s, Nelson represented the Atlantic City Planning Board during the approval of many of the casino properties which exist today. That experience captured his interest in Atlantic City’s past, and motivated him to write Boardwalk Empire. The sequel to Boardwalk Empire, titled, The Northside: African Americans and the creation of Atlantic City, is also available, as is Nelson’s fourth book, Battleground New Jersey: Vanderbilt, Hague and their fight for justice, published by Rutgers University Press.
To learn more about Nelson, visit nelsonjohnsonauthor.com.
So, welcome, Nelson.
Part 2 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Nelson Johnson: Thank you for that wonderful introduction. Very kind.
Mark Malatesta: You’ve accomplished a lot of things. I know everyone’s excited to listen to this, and so it’s an honor to do this. I just told everybody a little bit about Darrow’s Nightmare, but will you take a little bit more time and tell everybody more about it? Of course, this interview is designed primarily for writers, and they’re going to want to hear your writing advice, but a lot of them are also going to want to read Darrow’s Nightmare, especially those already familiar with your other work.
Nelson Johnson: Darrow’s Nightmare was a real challenge, and what I mean by that is I had known about his problems in Los Angeles back in the first decade of the 20th century, but I didn’t have confidence in many things I read about it. I kept noticing that everyone who talked about the trial was citing newspaper articles. There were ten newspapers in Los Angeles, so everybody had an ax to grind. It took me months, and it took the cooperation of a gentleman who’s a law school library librarian, to track down the 4,000-page trial transcript from Darrow’s trial.
It’s an amazing read for somebody like me. Some people tell me I have taken that story in that 12-week trial in the transcript and boiled it down to what was happening in the courtroom. What comes shining through is not only that it was a frame up, and that Darrow was really being hit upon in a big way by the powers that be in Los Angeles. But he was represented by an extraordinary lawyer, a genius, a guy by the name of Earl Rogers, who’s the basis of Erle Stanley Gardner’s Perry Mason.
I had a whole lot of fun writing it. I presented the book to different people who have ties in the film community. I’m pursuing one right now, and I still think it’s going to happen, whether it’s a two-hour movie or a six-hour series. I think Darrow is eventually going to wind up in film. I remain confident in that, and I’m working on other things presently and researching a couple avenues and enjoying my time writing.
Mark Malatesta: I definitely think it’s going to happen. And my hope is that it is a streaming series so we get more of it.
Nelson Johnson: That’s my hope as well.
Part 3 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: Right? Now, I know a lot of people listening to this may be familiar with Boardwalk Empire. Maybe not, I guess some. But can you talk a little bit about that as well?
Nelson Johnson: Boardwalk Empire was a tremendous amount of fun for myself and my wife. The five years the series aired, we got to meet a lot of interesting people. Learned a lot how the business works. One of the things that fascinated me about the filming process is just how labor intensive it is. The number of people involved in the filming of a scene and getting things ready, it’s fascinating. We sat in a lot of filming sessions, and we learned a lot. Got to meet a lot of interesting people. Steve Buscemi is what I would simply say is a working stiff, and I say that in a complimentary way. No airs about him at all. Shows up to do his job. Is very friendly with everybody.
The same thing was true for just about everybody on the cast. Terence Winter is what I would call a mensch, a Yiddish term for a really fine gentleman. Terry didn’t want anybody in the cast or involved in the place that could be a prima donna or disruptive. There was one person that he was able to write her out by the beginning of the second season, because she was just so difficult, and I’ll let people figure that out for themselves who that was.
Mark Malatesta: [Laughter]
Nelson Johnson: It was a real fun experience. Got to meet a lot of interesting people and learned a lot about the process, what’s involved. So, real eye-opener for me.
Mark Malatesta: Right? I’m glad it worked out so well, because I’ll hear horror stories fairly frequently. It’s not always like that, but, you know, I guess it’s who’s at the top, right? If they’re glued together the right way, then it’s a good production that’s pleasant to be part of.
Nelson Johnson: I think you’re correct. Let’s face it, in this business, it all does start at the top. If the person at the top knows what they’re doing and wants to be cooperative and asks for cooperation, the process does go smoothly. And, believe me, Boardwalk Empire was a hoot. My wife and I really had a lot of fun.
Mark Malatesta: I don’t know if I’ve told you this. I have so much admiration for you writing books like this. To me, it’s the hardest thing, to write, because you’re writing something that needs to read like a novel or a movie or streaming series. It needs be page-turning, dramatic, and interesting. It’s so much more difficult than just writing a report. You’ve got to be a really good storyteller, and, times 10 the degree of difficulty, because it has to be accurate. [Laughter] I would never dare to…there are easier things you could do. You were talking about the detail that goes into the film. Maybe think about this detail.
Part 4 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Nelson Johnson: You have to constantly tie the reader’s brain from one critical subject to the next critical subject and then explain. Why? What’s happening now all started from what happened then. It’s a tremendous challenge, but it’s tremendous fun, too. If you’re going to do it right, you have to be prepared to rewrite and rewrite and rewrite. All good writing is rewriting. I enjoy the process.
Mark, you’re correct. I mean, accuracy is the first and most important goal. I’m a retired judge. I’m a retired attorney, so my commitment to the truth is a big deal. Accuracy is important. But, what I do, and maybe this will be helpful to some writers… I’m working on a book now. It’s going to be 12 chapters. It’s a history, totally nonfiction, based upon a hell of a lot of research. When I get through the chapter that I’m on now, I’m probably going to go back to chapter one and ask myself, did you foreshadow this issue correctly? Did you echo that issue?
I’ve coached a few people on how to do it, and I always tell them, “I will know if you have a story, and if you don’t know how to tell it, if you show me your first 10 pages. That’s all it takes. If you can’t get the story running and rolling within the first 10 pages, then you’re not going to get it going.” And so I enjoy the writing process enormously. I can I get absorbed in it. It’s like a time sponge for me. It’s not work at all. It’s play.
Mark Malatesta: Now that 10 pages thing, that’s a trigger for some people. A lot of agents are like, “Hey, send me the first 50 pages.” And they’ll make a judgment. You told me once about a colleague who was trying to get you to read his manuscript. Can you share that, because I think there’s a good teaching point there.
Nelson Johnson: I had an experience with [a gentleman], he’s relocated to another state, I’m still friendly with him. He had a novel he wanted to write, but it was sort of a historical novel at the same time, and I said to him, “Show me the first 10 pages, and I’ll know if you have a story, and if you know how to tell that story.” Well, he sent me the first 35 pages. He got very upset with me, you know, when I said I’m not reading past page 10, because I asked you to send me 10 pages.
I pointed out to him some of the problems that he had right there internally with the first 10 pages, in terms of how what he was saying had the potential to confuse the reader. He got upset with me, and I said, well, that’s okay, you know, you’re free to do whatever you want? So I don’t know what ever happened to his book. He hasn’t gotten back to me, but I do get requests like this frequently from people I know, and I tell them the same thing. Show me the first 10 pages. I’ll know if you have a story, and I’ll know if you know how to tell your story.
Mark Malatesta: Yes, there’s a smart way to do things, and we can see things quickly. I have an author right now. She’s killing me. She’s very sweet, but she’s a new memoir writer. And so the first thing you do is, if you’re smart, you think, okay, “What do we roughly think the point of this will be? Where do we think it will end and climax? And where are we going to begin?” Then, if you’re smart, you create chapter summaries. Well, nope, her process, she told me, is, she figures things out as she writers. Well, now, many months later, that that book draft is done, and guess what? Those first eight chapters don’t need to be there.
Part 5 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Nelson Johnson: Memoirs are very challenging, but a good memoir is definitely worth reading. It’s a real challenge. I think, whether it’s a novel, whether it’s a memoir, whether it’s a work of history, in the first 10 pages, it’s sort of like a flashlight, and you’re shining down into where you’re going to go with this story. I get a strong feel for, you know, where are we going? If you can’t do that in the first 10 pages, then you got to go back and start over. That’s my opinion.
I used to tell lawyers and some of my colleagues, “Whatever the issue is that you’re trying to resolve, if you can’t boil it down, you know, or, like, distill it down, like balsamic vinegar… If you can’t boil it down to 50 words, then you don’t know your subject well enough. It’s just that simple.” Your words on paper, on the computer screen, will never be organized if your thoughts aren’t organized in advance. Not only do you want the reader to know where you’re going, you need to know where you’re going with your writing. And that’s a challenge for me. It’s a wonderful challenge. I do not view it as work at all.
Mark Malatesta: Two points there. It’s understanding the storytelling, right? Because from this author’s mind, she’s thinking, well, all this is important, the early years and the brothers and the grandparents and this and the that. But it’s not page turning. Let’s start later on in the story with a more dramatic opening. Then, guess what? Those first 10 pages, someone like you or an agent or a publisher, they’re trusting you’re in control. Then, after that dramatic opening, then you can maybe have a chapter where you go back and go, like, oh, gosh, how did I get here? And the reader will go with you, right?
Nelson Johnson: Yes, but Mark, life is a big story. People look at the world and they create their own stories in terms of trying to make sense of things. Half of what we do is trying to make sense of things. So, you have to let the reader know right away that you have made sense of this situation. You’re ready to tell them an engrossing story. If you can’t do that in the first 10 pages, then you’re not going to do it
Mark Malatesta: And loving the research. That’s the other piece. It hit me, well, okay, that’s the only way you’re able to do something like that, right? Books like that. You are just nerdy, like me, with certain things. You’d read that transcript just for fun, because you’re interested. If it was just work, no one’s going to do all that.
Nelson Johnson: You are correct. I tell people I’m 75 years old, and every now and then somebody will say, “Well, what are you doing here? Enjoying yourself?” I say, “Yeah, I’m doing what I enjoyed doing most when I was in the third grade, I read and I write. I love to read. I love to write.” They really go hand in hand, Mark. I know you’re going to confirm what I’m about to say.
Good writing really is a product of good reading, because when you read really good literature, whatever it may be, it really does help you become a better writer. And so the two go hand in hand for me, I’m reading a lot of great stuff right now. Several really engrossing histories, and they’re all really helping me tell the story that I want to tell. If I can’t tell a decent, engrossing story, I’ve failed. It’s not just delivering information. You have to deliver knowledge to people. That’s an effort, but a worthwhile effort.
Part 6 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: That’s the old “write what you know” or “write what you want to know about.” But you have to have lived a incredible life, a one in a million life, to be able to just write from that, or you better be learning and researching something, to have something to say that hasn’t been, etc., or a new way of saying it.
Nelson Johnson: You are you are correct, and if you don’t really love the process, whether you’re writing novels or histories or memoirs… If you don’t really love the process of writing, then maybe it’s not for you. It is all about telling stories. You have a big story that you’re letting the reader know about when you get started. Then as you go forward, you have a bunch of little stories that you need to figure out how to relate them.
Sometimes it’s a particular instance, a particular villain, particular good guy, bad guy, but you know, you want to try to foreshadow where you’re going. After you get there, you should want to echo back to where you were. All that helps the reader to tie everything together. You’re tying it together for them, but they’re thinking they are as they’re reading it, and that’s what you want them to think. That, hey, I’m getting it here, so, it’s a lot of fun for me. It’s a lot of fun.
Mark Malatesta: Now, talk a little bit about your background. Of course, as a judge, you’re going to have some writing experience. Not necessarily dramatic storytelling experience. But talk a little bit about writing background, like when you thought you might actually become a book author. How did that evolve, and other writing you did, like, short stories, anything like that.
Nelson Johnson: Well, now I’m gonna really sound geeky. When I was in college, I got introduced to two different very different thinkers. One was Machiavelli, who wasn’t as bad a guy as everybody…they throw that word around, Machiavelli. He really was a counselor to rulers. The other guy was St Augustine. Very different figures, but they both had a realistic view of human nature. They didn’t gloss over anything. They really talked about people the way they were.
My original goal, when I was in in college and in law school, I said, “One of these days, I have to write a book that tells people the importance of the thoughts of Machiavelli and St Augustine.” Well, what I figured out eventually was that I didn’t read [Latin]. Their writings are in Latin. The really important stuff. I took Latin, but I don’t read it well enough to go back and read some of their work.
Right about the time I was giving up hope that I could write a book on the political philosophy of Machiavelli and St Augustine, I was representing the Atlantic City Planning Board. I went in to City Hall knowing the place was corrupt. That didn’t bother me one iota, because I knew I wasn’t going to do anything corrupt. In the time that I was there, I only had one solicitation from someone who was not a good player. My response to him was, “I didn’t hear what you said, but if you say it again, I’m going to call Richard Williams, the Atlantic County prosecutor.”
Mark Malatesta: Mmm.
Part 7 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Nelson Johnson: He got the message. That was the end of the conversation, and that was the end of me having to deal with him. He just stayed away from me from that point. So, corruption didn’t bother me. I knew how to deal with it. You just don’t participate in it. Quit., If you’re being pressured by the people who chose you, which never happened. If you’re being pressured by people to do things you don’t want to do, you don’t do them, or you walk away, totally.
I’m overwhelmed with the dysfunctionality in City Hall, and after about a year and a half of dealing with this, I decide I got to go to library. All the answers for everything are in a library. At least, that’s how I used to think. I still think, well, there’s so much stuff on the Internet now, it blows my head. But I go to the library and I get to meet two ladies who really were just what I needed. They understood Atlantic City history, and they fed me books. After about another 18 months and, I’d say, 15 to 20 books, I came away with three conclusions.
First, nobody had ever written a complete history of Atlantic City from the arrival of the train in 1854 up to present day of the 21st century. Nobody had done that. Hmm. That’s interesting.
Mark Malatesta: [Laughter]
Nelson Johnson: You know, there were little snippets of different portions of the history, but nobody told the complete story. So I found that. Second, nobody ever talked about political corruption and how political corruption was a necessity for Atlantic City to succeed. If you had a very short season back in the old days. If the weather was good, you could have 14 weeks. If the weather was lousy, you might have 10 weeks. And so you had to give the visitor what they wanted, and that was a key to Atlantic City’s success.
One of the old timers that it took me, Mark, no exaggeration, took me four years and probably 10 different requests for this gentleman who I knew, knew where the bones were buried. Took me a long time to get him to talk, but I was patient. I was persistent, I was friendly. I never pushed. I just said, “Hey Murray, you think you’re ready to talk now?” Or, “Hey Murray, you know, I think you know things about this.”
Finally, he talked to me, and in the very beginning of the book, when you open up the first page of Boardwalk Empire, what it says is, “If the people who came to town had wanted Bible readings, we would have given them that, but nobody ever asked for Bible readings. They wanted booze, broads and gambling, so that’s what we gave them.”
Mark Malatesta: [Laughter]
Nelson Johnson: Right there, I mean, talk about being able to take a subject and distill it down like balsamic vinegar, way less than 50 words. Murray said it all. Once I had that quote in my head, I said, “This is the story I got to tell. You know, it’s here.” So I give it to the reader, right on the very first page, all by itself.
The third thing I took away, which was absolutely fascinating, was the indispensable role of African Americans in the creation of Atlantic City. From around 1882 to almost World War II, 90% of the workforce was African American. You could not have run this town without African Americans. They built the town. That’s what drove me to write the book The Northside, and I had tremendous fun doing that.
Again, like Boardwalk Empire, it was a race against death, because I knew there were people that I had to interview, and I knew they were old. But once I had written Boardwalk Empire, that opened up any door that I knocked on, to be honest with you, in terms of getting people to talk to me for the second book. So the whole experience in Atlantic City and writing those two books was a tremendous amount of fun. It really was.
Part 8 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: There are a couple gems in there. It doesn’t have to be this way for everybody, but I really related when you were describing your process, researching out of joy. Then you realized, wow, nobody has done this particular thing. It’s just the way your brain works, looking for a unique angle, like, who’s going to be inspired writing something that’s just like a retread, something that’s already been done?
Nelson Johnson: You are correct. The book that I’m working on now… I don’t want to sound like a jerk, somewhere down [the road], I’m going to share the whole idea with you, what I’m doing. Right now, I’m still trying to pull it together. I’m writing this book for many reasons. One of the reasons is I know I’ve got an angle that nobody else has taken. When I lay it out there, I know I’m going to grab a particular audience that I know will want this book.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: So, yes, not just telling stories, it’s telling stories that are original. It’s telling stories that are going to spark people’s imaginations and get them wondering, “Hey, where’s he going with all this?” It excites me. I know that with this book, I’m going to grab people with first 5-6 pages. I know I can do that. I know my audience. But yes, about having a different approach. And again, whether it’s a memoir, history, novel, you want to craft a story that no one else has crafted, or what’s the point? Your imagination is the only thing that limits you, even when you’re dealing with hard facts.
You have to use your imagination. How do I portray this? How do I tell the story? How do I highlight this character? How do I show this guy’s a bad guy? You know, without saying he’s a bad guy? Let the reader figure that out for themselves. How do I show that this guy is a is a real Steady Eddie. Just talk about his performance and his influence on things. It’s a challenge, but there are unique stories waiting to be written all the time. It’s really up to us writers, to figure out. Alright, how do I tell this story? I have been working on this story for months, and I have figured out how to tell it, and I’m thrilled.
Mark Malatesta: I like the “show them he’s a bad guy vs tell them.” I mean, that’s kind of basic to you, right? But a lot of people miss that. Uniqueness, we didn’t talk about this. We don’t have to spend time on it, but one of the things I loved about Darrow’s Nightmare is that his wife plays an important part. That also is another layer that make it unique.
Nelson Johnson: I think, keeping my fingers crossed, when Darrow’s Nightmare makes it to film, the narrator, so to speak, is going to be Ruby. She played such a big role in the man’s life. It was almost like she’d wind him up in the morning and push him in the right direction. Darrow was brilliant. Darrow was also eccentric. And Darrow could go a week without bathing. He could go days without changing his clothes. He could look like a real scrum bum. She was the one who took control of all his personal details and just let him focus on the law, and being one of the most extraordinary advocates that you’re ever going to find.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 9 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Nelson Johnson: We probably wouldn’t be talking about Darrow right now, if it [also] wasn’t for Earl Rogers. When Darrow went west in 1911, it was after a terrible bombing that occurred in October of 1910 where two brothers, the McNamara brothers, one was hands on, the other one was, directing it from behind the scenes, blew up the Los Angeles Times building. 20 people died. It’s still the worst accident or incident of labor violence in American history. 20 people dead. Major building destroyed.
Darrow is asked months later, when the brothers are arrested, he’s asked by the labor movement to represent them. Ruby says, “Hell no, I don’t want to go to Los Angeles. We know what’s waiting for us there. They don’t like unions. They don’t like you. I want to stay here.”
Mark Malatesta: [Laughter]
Nelson Johnson: Darrow says, “Let’s go. Let’s go. I’ll figure it out when I get there.” Well, he gets there, and after about three or four months, he says, Holy Christ, these guys, these kids, are guilty. I can’t save them, and I got a judge who’s a candidate for the California State Supreme Court. He would like nothing more than to hang these two kids.”
So Darrow, with the help of, this name may mean something to some of your audience, Lincoln Steffens, was the first muckraking journalist. He was a real bold Guy. Lincoln Steffens had real charisma. He had all the charm Darrow didn’t have, and he helped Darrow negotiate a plea bargain where the two brothers went to jail instead of being hung. Well, within weeks of that guilty plea, word was on the street that Darrow would be indicted next.
They didn’t want him to leave town. If they couldn’t hang the brothers, they had to get him. He was indicted and charged with attempting to bribe a juror who was never even called to be a juror. I mean, it’s kind of preposterous.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: I’m sharing my feelings now, but, in the book, I let the reader decide for themselves. Was Darrell guilty or not? I don’t think he was, but I let the reader decide that. But Earl Rogers comes forward and he represents Darrow. Everybody in town, wherever Darrow went, they said, You need Rogers, you need Rogers. And Rogers was a big fan of Darrow, so Rogers busted his gut to do his best.
I read the memoir of Rogers’ daughter, Adela Rogers St John’s. Much of it deals with the trial, and much of it deals with her father’s idiosyncrasies. I think if he was alive today, he would probably be called bipolar. In those days, he was what he was, and he could work months on end at a very high level. then he would go on a bender for three, four days. He would hang out in a brothel where he was friendly with with the madame. He would hang out there, drink for days. Then she helped him get cleaned up, sent him to a Turkish bath, sent him to the barber shop, and he was ready to go again.
Mark Malatesta: [Laughter]
Part 10 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Nelson Johnson: Extraordinary guy. Extraordinary. He will be a major player when it becomes film. You have three large people. You got Ruby, you got Clarence, you got Rogers, and then you’ve got the publisher of the times, Harrison Gray Otis, who was a giant in his day. He remains a giant in the history of newspapers. It’s a lot of fun, and we’re going to get there. The process isn’t going as quickly as I’d hoped, but we’ll get there with the film, because I have so many big, big characters to work with. It excites me.
Mark Malatesta: I know we talked about some of your tips, advice for authors, regarding writing a book. Do you have anything else, whether it’s specific to your type of book or just generally?
Nelson Johnson: I tell people, “I don’t care what you call it—an outline, road map, recipe—but before you begin writing, organize your thoughts.” That doesn’t mean you have to have the entire book mapped out, because when you get through one issue, it may impact how you feel about the next issue, but you need to start with a rough outline, even if it’s like a Christmas tree with nothing hanging on it. You start out with a with a rough outline and think it through.
How am I going to tell the story? Who are the big players? What are the big obstacles they have to overcome? What are the tragedies they experience? Ask yourself all these questions, because these are the questions you have to ask. No matter what you’re writing, you should be you should be doing that.
Mark Malatesta: Absolutely.
Nelson Johnson: I have coached people on writing novels. I don’t know if you have ever thought about this, but I have always said, “When you sit down to write a novel and you’ve got a plan for where you want to go with it, you need to write a miniature biography of all of your principal characters, because they can’t do something that’s out of character for themselves and their personal history. The reader is going to pick up on it immediately.”
I’ve had a couple friends who’ve written novels, and I said to them, “Have you written a 100-word or 200-word mini bio of Fred Jones, where he was born, what his parents were like, and where he went to school? Have you got all that together? Because really, you got to have your character solid as you go forward. If they’re weak, the reader is going to pick up on that immediately.”
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: I’ve read a few novels where I thought the author hadn’t really done that. Philip Roth is one of my favorite writers. I think I’ve read everything he’s written. His characters are solid. There are no surprises with his characters, unless the character himself is surprised. You know, he’s doing something or something occurs that he didn’t envision. So you have to think through where you’re going before you write. That’s essential for every writer. If you don’t do that, your writing’s going to be sort of a mishmash. You have to think it through.
Part 11 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: Two big things come to mind when you talk about that. A lot of characters sound the same. That’s because they’re not real to the author. [The author hasn’t] developed them fully, thought them through with their backstory and those bios. Good characters…they’re really distinct, and you know them quickly. A lot of times it’s not like that.
Nelson Johnson: Yes, and again, it doesn’t matter what your genre is, you need to know where you’re going, and you need to know your principle players. I mean, I would never write a memoir. My mother was the principle player of my life without question. The second most important person before I get to my wife was a gentleman who was my emotional father. My real father and I never connected. I don’t have any desire to ever write a memoir, because it would probably be pretty unpleasant.
But you need to know, who are my main characters? Where are we going with this story? Regardless of the genre, you need to think it through. You need to identify who are the key players in the story that you’re trying to tell. Then, what are their stories, and what makes them exciting and interesting.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: It requires patience and it requires persistence. If you think you know you’re going to write something and then everybody’s going to want to print it, or somebody’s going to want to turn it into film, the most important advice I can give you is persistence.
I have a former secretary. She’s now retired, and we talk frequently. She’s like my sister. She was with me from the very beginning, and she said, “I don’t really know how many rejection letters we got on Boardwalk Empire. I stopped counting somewhere above 50, because you told me to throw them away.”
Mark Malatesta: Yeah.
Nelson Johnson: The same thing is true with trying to get the thing into film, you can’t worry about rejection. You have to focus on, “Can I learn something from that rejection? What did they tell me that should maybe help me with my next pitch, my next approach? Can I learn from that?” If you’re persistent, and if you have something to work with, then eventually you’ll succeed at one level or another.
If you aren’t persistent, then maybe you’ll just, you know, let it go by the wayside, move on to something different. I think persistence is really important in trying to be successful in this business. I know you know that because you probably have a whole lot of people in your life, including yourself. Look at what you’ve done, and you’ve done that through persistence.
Part 12 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: That’s certainly half of it. What you were talking about earlier, with focus, kike, I don’t want to sound like a jerk either, but I always ask myself two questions. I’ll put this out there for authors: “If you’re going to write anything. A, what’s the point? And B, who cares?”
Nelson Johnson: Oh, good questions.
Mark Malatesta: You have to earn it. I’m curious for you, but memoir writers fall into this the most, and a lot of novelists… They have some characters in mind and some events in mind, right? So they can put things down, and things are happening and people are doing stuff. But if you’re not really keyed in on, from the very beginning, what the real point is. It’s not as tight, not as focused. It’s just not working. You always have a real pin in it, from the beginning.
Nelson Johnson: I know exactly what the point is before I start writing that opening scene. Yes, Mark, I really like your two questions. That really does boil it down. Now let me add one thing to that. I did have the experience of representing a daily newspaper back in the day when newspapers were being delivered to peoples’ doors for 20 years. I became friendly with one of the editors, and he said, because I was telling him what I was trying to do with Boardwalk Empire… I didn’t have a name at the time, it was just a history.
He said, “No matter what you write, it will facilitate your thinking.” If you have an actual person you know…this is going to the question of who cares…have in your mind, visualize in your mind, Bill Smith is the perfect audience for this book, and I want to make sure he loves it. I’m writing to Bill Smith. When I wrote Boardwalk Empire, I had several people in mind. Names wouldn’t mean anything at this point, but when the book was done, I knew they would enjoy it.
Mark Malatesta: A lot of people, they just, again, I’m picking on the memoir writers today, but they just assume everyone’s going to be interested. It can come out, like, well, maybe only the family and friends might be interested…and they might not even be that interested, if you’re not working to make it interesting.
Nelson Johnson: I gave them copies of the book. In fact, one of them helped edit the book. He was one of the people I had in mind, but I didn’t tell him that. As I was writing, he didn’t even know what I was doing. But what’s the point, and who cares? Visualize in your mind who you think is a person who cares. Just pick one person and write to that person. I’m really happy you made that point because it does matter.
Yes, you must tell stories that people will relate to and that people will want to know, how’s it end, where are we going? What’s the point? Who cares? Who cares really matters a great deal. And again, I think if you visualize somebody you know would care about the story, then that can make the writing process have more energy. Let’s put it that way, if you think nobody cares, well, then why the hell are you writing it?
Mark Malatesta: Right, right, right.
Part 13 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Nelson Johnson: As I said, all writing is rewriting, but when you are rewriting, when you are editing your work, I say, find a quiet place and read it aloud. Your ear will catch words that don’t fit and sentences that are too long. Your ear will catch them before your eye will. When I do all my editing as I’m getting toward finalizing a chapter or finalizing a portion of a book, I will get in a quiet place. My wife kicked me out of the house years ago. I have a writing studio in the backyard, and I go to my writing studio and I read aloud.
Mark, it’s amazing the mistakes I find with my ear that I didn’t see with my eye. So, that’s one tip I give people all the time. When you get down to your final edit, read it aloud. And, little footnote, because my mom was sort of a Bible person. She studied the Bible, and one of the things I learned from her is that the King James Version of the Bible was edited by reading it aloud.
Mark Malatesta: Wow. It’s time-consuming, but you’ll pick up extra things. It’s the same, and weird, but reading something on the printed page versus on the computer screen, you also see different things.
Nelson Johnson: Yes, you are correct. I like having a hard copy in my hand because I can flip from page three to page seven and say, you know, you’re overusing that word. You’re abusing that phrase. You don’t have it in the proper context. I mean, you have a screen in front of you. You can’t edit the same way as if you have a hard copy.
I know one of the things I’m going to do tomorrow morning, starting around 4:30 or 5 am… I’m going to be rereading a substantial portion of a chapter that I am close to finishing. I’m going to sit in my writing studio and I’m going to read it aloud, and with my red pen in hand, I’m going to find mistakes. I know I will.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: That’s my approach. Print out what you’re working with, and have it in your hand with a red pen. And now I’m gonna really get into goofball stuff. Not only do I use a red pen, I use a yellow highlighter. Let me tell you what I use yellow highlighter for. Every now and then I’ll see a phrase that’s in the wrong place. I’ll see an entire paragraph that really shouldn’t be where it is, or maybe the half a dozen sentences.
So, as I’m reading with my red pen, I’ll take the yellow and basically say, move to page four. Move to the next paragraph or wherever. And then when I go back, sit down on my computer to make those changes, it’s much easier than if I have a whole bunch of scribbling, with one color, red.
I use red to make my edits, and I use yellow very infrequently, but yellow when I know I have to move something, and I have a 10-20 page document. You don’t want to be missing, you know, where is that phrase that I need to move? So, I do that. Writing is rewriting. If you’re not committed to rewriting your work [an] endless number of times…
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 14 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Nelson Johnson: Terence Winter really liked the prologue of Boardwalk Empire. He said, “You know, you grabbed me with the prologue.” I don’t know how many times I reworked that.
Mark Malatesta: Those first few pages, the first 10 pages.
Nelson Johnson: Correct, the first 10 pages, and that in that book, it’s like the first seven pages But the first 10 pages, if you can’t grab them in the first 10 pages, then you’re not going to grab them.
Mark Malatesta: A lot of people say, “It really gets going once you get to page 80.” I’m like, “Well, then start on page 80.”
Nelson Johnson: The reader doesn’t have that much patience. You need to grab them early and sustain the effort with one story after another, is what you what you’re trying to do. I gotta tell you something. Things have changed so much from the time I began writing Boardwalk Empire back in the 1980s, to today. Things have changed so much that it makes my head explode sometimes.
I have a door open, and the door is open to everybody, but some people get treated differently than others. Amazon will let you self-publish, and they do [a good job]. When I say they do a good job, I mean they do an okay job. I’ve seen some of the books that have been published directly by Amazon. I’ve got a friend who’s done that. I’m not saying to do it or not. But the number of publishers, conventional publishers, are fewer and fewer all the time. Who’s being absorbed by who? I don’t know how many times Simon & Schuster has moved from one conglomerate to another conglomerate, same thing.
So, you really do need somebody. You were helpful with me and getting the right agent for Darrow. I had four who expressed interest, two who expressed very strong interest, and one I decided to go meet with, and that’s who I chose. The first queries came pretty quickly. I think I was decided within two weeks of sending out the first query. I knew I wanted my agent to be a lawyer with legal background. In the list you gave me, there were half a dozen different people with legal background, and I found the right guy.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: I’m not saying to go conventional or not. I mean, because we really are in a digital world today, and I’ve got relatives who read books on nothing but their phone, or they have a Kindle. So the hard copy means nothing to a whole lot of people. My sister read Darrow Nightmare, I gave her a copy, but she but she read it on her Kindle.
The route you go is something that that’s going to be personal to you, and particular to the work you’re writing. The book I’m writing now, I definitely envision…the first version is going to be hard copy. Then there’ll be paperback after that, because I know my audience. I know they’re going to want to hold this book in their hand. That may not be true for the next book I write, either, because I have another book. You and I will talk about some of the particulars at another time.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 15 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Nelson Johnson: I don’t have any advice to give, other than to try to find somebody in the industry with knowledge and with a resume who can give you decent guidance. You were very helpful for me in doing that. I would have never found Arthur Klebanoff if his name hadn’t been on the list you gave me. It’s really just that simple. Arthur’s semi-retired now. That’s a whole other thing. So with this next book, I’m probably going to go to Arthur and say, Okay, Arthur, who do you think’s right for this book?
He may say, “I am.” Or he may say, “You know, let’s talk to so-and-so.” But I’ve got a guy who I know is going to appreciate what I’m writing. I’m confident, because of a relationship that he’ll help me find somebody. So I’m going to remain, for this book, in the traditional print version, because I think it’s the right way to go with this particular book. The next one, maybe not. Maybe the next one, maybe not, because, again, my audience for the next book is very different.
Mark Malatesta: Once you’re a name, as long as you have the willingness and capacity to do some promotion stuff, you can [self-publish and do really well]. It’s [more important to get a traditional publisher for] the newbies trying to break out. It’s really harder to have scale and distribution. I have a client right now whose book literally [just] came out within days, called No Bullet Got Me Yet. You’ll see this all over international news soon. It’s already been there a little.
It’s a biography of the first [male] saint in the United States who is going to be canonized soon. Incredible story. Well, it just so happens, the publisher publishing his book is Harper Collins, and guess what? They just released, a few days ago, a biography of the Pope. So, there are some things and synergies and scale that just aren’t going to happen, usually, self-publishing. They can, right? Lightning can strike, but, usually, reaching more readers, feature film, all that stuff, generally, is going to happen, getting the agent, the bigger publisher. But self-publishing is no joke either.
Nelson Johnson: Well, that’s an interesting title, No Bullet Got Me Yet.
Mark Malatesta: Yeah, No Bullet Got Me Yet. You’ll see it has meaning, as you can imagine. It’s a great story in the book.
Nelson Johnson: That’s wild. That’s wild. I like that.
Mark Malatesta: Now, anything you want to say about our work together, [for] anybody who’s listening this, thinking about getting help, whether it’s with me or someone else? Your thoughts on that?
Nelson Johnson: Especially if you’re a first time writer, you need somebody like Mark. I’m not saying hire Mark, but you need somebody like Mark. You need somebody who knows the business, somebody who can say, “Okay, this group of agents or this publishers is likely going to be interested in your stuff.” Or, “No, they’re not likely to be interested.” A first-time writer really needs that help, of somebody with the knowledge and wisdom to be able to say, “Yeah, you don’t want to talk to that guy. You want to talk to this guy.”
Mark Malatesta: Mm-hmm.
Part 16 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Nelson Johnson: For a new author, that’s terribly important. I’ve had a couple different agents. One wound up in Hong Kong. That’s where he is, because he’s married to a very successful Chinese actress. So his whole career there is managing her career now.
The second agent, I’ve done very well with, but he’s an older gentleman. His health is sort of giving out on him. I’m hoping to see him in a few weeks. I’m going to be in New York, and I’m planning to meet with him and get his advice. Arthur. where do you think I go with this book? But you do need people with knowledge of the book business to help you, especially if you are a first time writer.
And self-publishing…I have a friend who has self-published a half-dozen books, and all I can say to my wife is, “You know, this guy would have really benefited from an editor.” But he just likes getting these books published. They’re all about one particular thing, and different versions of it, and I can’t finish reading any of them. They’re very difficult to read because they’re not organized well, and no editor went over it carefully, just paid money to somebody and they published it.
I mean, I’m not telling you to don’t self-publish. There are plenty of people who will publish whatever you got. But I think the filter that gets applied through working with people knowledgeable of the book business, will not only improve your product, but improve the chances of getting it before the audience that you want to get it before.
New writers really do need a guide. You need somebody who’s going to take you down the trail and show you what to look for as you go along, for sure. Who you get as a guide, is your call, but I think you need one if you’re a first time writer. I don’t have any doubt about that.
Mark Malatesta: Right, right.
Nelson Johnson: I found all of your criticisms constructive. I was able to embrace almost all of the changes you suggested, and that process kind of loosened me up and got me ready for even more changes that came from the agent and now the publisher. It was an important process, you and I working together, it’s a very important process. I found it to be not only informative but also one that made me a little bit better writer.
I know that my book talks about Clarence Darrow’s wife, Ruby, more than any other book written about him does. But both you and my agent were able to make me appreciate the need to put her front and center. I was saying a lot of things about her that you would think she’d be front and center, but the revision that we have now, Ruby is in the very first page. She’s in the very first paragraph of the book before we even get to the development of Clarence.
She’s now an important character that she may not have been if it hadn’t been for changes suggested by yourself and changes suggested by the agent. All of them were happy to see that I had thought through the whole process of trying to market the book, and I found the process really helpful. Now I’m happy that you forced me to make changes and develop it and expand it, because I do have a really good marketing plan that you know, I think will be very helpful in selling the book.
Mark Malatesta: Oh, good. Good, good, good, good.
Part 17 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Nelson Johnson: I knew that I had to have a new agent. I knew that I wanted to do as thorough a search for an agent as possible. And I wanted expertise and how to locate the type of agent I was looking for. So when I looked online as to who was out there to give me some coaching, your name rose to the top. I spoke to you on the phone, and I said, I know he and I can work together, and you were extremely helpful.
I could tell by your ability to listen, I could tell by the questions you asked, that made me understand you knew where I was coming from. I felt from our first conversation that we could work together. You impressed upon me the need to get really exciting stuff that would capture a reader’s attention as upfront and as close to the beginning of the book as possible.
As a result of your comments, I was able to do that. And then as a result of my agent’s comments, I was able to do a little bit more of that. The book does get off to a faster start than it previously did, and that’s important, obviously.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Nelson Johnson: The detail you required for the marketing plan, now I completely embrace it. At the time, I was like, “Oh no, why are we doing this again? Why are we doing this again?” But, now I understand. I have my blueprint for marketing the book. You know, I trust people and I respect people until they give me a reason not to. During our first conversation, I not only came away with trust and respect, but also a feeling that I think this guy’s a pro. I think he knows what he’s doing. As it turns out, I was correct. You’re a very thoughtful gentleman and a very constructive critic.
Mark Malatesta: Thank you.
Nelson Johnson: Mark, you’ve been you’ve been a big help to me, and I’m happy where I am right now.
Mark Malatesta: Thank you, and thank you for doing this.
Nelson Johnson: I value our friendship, and I will stay in touch.
Part 18 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: Okay everyone, this is Mark Malatesta, founder of The Bestselling Author, with Nelson Johnson, the author of Boardwalk Empire, Darrow’s Nightmare, and other books. You can get a copy of Nelson’s books everywhere books are sold, and you can learn more about Nelson at nelsonjohnsonauthor.com.
And, if you’re interested in a private 1-on-1 coaching call with me, to talk about the best way to write, publish, or promote your book, visit AuthorConsultation.com.
Lastly, if you’re listening to this interview—or reading the transcript—and you’re not yet a member of my online community, register now [it’s free] at TheBestsellingAuthor.com for instant access to more information (and inspiration) like this, to help you become the bestselling author you can be.
Remember…
Getting published isn’t luck, it’s a decision.
See you next time.
About Mark Malatesta
This interview and review of Mark Malatesta were provided by Nelson Johnson, the author of Boardwalk Empire, which was adapted for the HBO series produced by Martin Scorsese, and other books, including Darrow’s Nightmare. Nelson worked with Mark Malatesta, an author coach and consultant, to get multiple literary agents interested in his work.
Mark Malatesta is a former literary agent and former AAR member who’s now helped 400+ authors of all Book Genres (fiction, nonfiction, and children’s books) get literary agents and/or traditional publishers. Mark is Founder & CEO of Literary Agent Undercover, a division of The Bestselling Author, through which he provides 1-on-Literary Agent Advice (coaching and consulting).
Mark’s writers have gotten offers of representation from the Best Literary Agents at the Top Literary Agencies; book deals with major publishers such as Harper Collins, Random House, and Thomas Nelson; and sold millions of books. They’ve been on the New York Times bestseller list; had their work optioned for TV, stage, and feature film; won countless awards; and had their work licensed in 40+ countries.
Mark is also the creator of the well-known Directory of Literary Agents, with a comprehensive List of Literary Agents seeking writers. In addition, Mark is the host of Ask a Literary Agent, and author of the popular How to Get a Literary Agent Guide. His articles have appeared in outlets such as the Writer’s Digest Guide to Literary Agents and the Publishers Weekly Book Publishing Almanac.
Mark Malatesta Reviews – Former Literary Agent
Here you can see more Mark Malatesta reviews from authors like Nelson Johnson, who’ve worked with Mark to get top literary agents. You can also see reviews of Mark Malatesta from publishing industry professionals. These reviews of Mark Malatesta include his time as an author coach and consultant, literary agent, and Marketing & Licensing Manager for the well-known book/gift publisher Blue Mountain Arts.